When you cannot afford a sanitary pad
Arkadiusz Karwacki: I am approaching this interview with a great deal of humility. It is difficult for me to penetrate the real experience of a woman in a menstrual situation because I am a man. However, as a sociologist, I have been researching social problems and the experience of deprivation, i.e., failure to meet the needs of representatives of various social groups and categories, for years. I can talk about situations where certain resources are scarce, when someone is blocked from accessing certain rights and dignity is denied in relation to other people.
Recently, more and more has been said and written about poverty and menstrual exclusion in Poland. Is that good?
Yes, it is. This is the way to stop these issues from being a taboo subject and to be able to help effectively. It is a multidimensional problem and, paradoxically, it is experienced by women equally – albeit in different forms.
Because the lack of hygiene products and the inability to communicate the psychophysical condition in the context of the duties performed are two different things. At the same time, instead of talking about exclusion, I prefer to talk about the deprivation of needs.
Does it change a lot?
We are talking about the same thing, but concepts have the power to explain and create reality at the same time. They allow us to define experience and assign us a name, they assign priorities. When we talk about the excluded in social sciences, we position this person, we put a certain label on them. And our role is to look for concepts that will not stigmatise. When I talk about deprivation, that is, not meeting certain needs, I do not label anyone, I do not put them in a drawer labelled “excluded”.
It’s a bit like talking about disabled people and people with disabilities. The burden is not placed on that person, but on the problem.
Yes, that’s a good example. After all, everyone can have unmet needs and we can differ in this. However, we are still equals in access to dignity.
I have heard the phrase that poverty in Poland has the face of a woman. Are we dealing with the feminisation of poverty in Poland?
We used to divide poverty into the old one, the one before 1989, and the new one – since the transformation. It is useful to recall the features of this new poverty in Poland and examine the situation of women. Many of the features of the new poverty can be related to the issue of period poverty. An important role is played by the ghettoisation of poverty, its concentration in specific districts, in the courtyards of tenement houses, isolation and locking up in homes. If I’m deprived, I don’t flaunt it, I hide. I prefer to keep my head down and not reveal my problems or what I lack in relation to others.
A special feature of this new poverty is juvenalisation, which is pointed out by many researchers, and refers to the over-representation and special experiences of children in poor households – the failure to take into account their needs in the family survival strategy. That is why sometimes Polish poverty has the face of a child. But the statement that it has a woman’s face is also true. Feminisation of poverty comes down to a particular burden on women in the context of household survival. It is about taking responsibility for a family that is struggling with poverty. It is women who most often go to aid institutions and fill out the documents needed to obtain the benefit. Cause guys say, “No, because of honour.” In the film “Arizona”, a documentary from the mid-90s, there is a scene where a woman explains to the camera that the man can drink, and she has to feed the children and put them to sleep. This shows the role of a woman who has a great sense of duty and responsibility for the family. She often puts their needs above her own needs.
How does this relate to period poverty?
It is manifested by not taking into account one’s own needs and comfort, aspirations and quality of life in the strategy of family duration, expenses and needs. All too often a woman does not see a space for herself to give herself the right to comfort, time for her own affairs and satisfaction of her needs, apart from fulfilling the service function in the family. She fails to see that her corporeality is an inalienable right, that her needs are important in the context of the family’s survival. She has the right to take care of herself and her health.
It is much more than just access to hygiene products.
Science-based reflection on the essence of poverty, which has been going on for over a hundred years, involves the transition from the issue of not meeting basic (material) needs to an extended perspective, including the failure to meet non-material needs. Poverty is not only about the lack of food, resources for shelter or clothes. It is also a lack of access to various aspects of life that are considered valuable, to such conditions that would guarantee safety and good relations with people. Satisfying basic needs is the main face of poverty. But we cannot forget about other aspects who make our life good.
It is similar with period poverty. It is not only the supply of hygiene products, but also the ability to communicate needs, to talk about this phenomenon, as well as the awareness of hygienic practices and knowing how to deal with it. In the context of mental health, a sense of subjectivity and agency also matters. Comfort and self-acceptance are also extremely important.
Knowledge about one’s own body and the ability to talk about related topics are passed down from generation to generation. And menstruation is discussed quietly or not at all.
This could also be applied to the phenomenon accompanying poverty. There is a debate on o inheriting poverty, that is, passing patterns that make children imitate their parents’ lifestyle on to future generations and it is difficult to break this vicious circle.
The experience of not caring for girls in a physical and mental context, the ability or inability to talk about their bodies and their own needs – all this also has an intergenerational dimension. It is from her mother or grandmother that the girl learns how to act, how to take care of her own health, how to talk about her feelings.
Does period poverty violate dignity?
For me, deprivation of needs is unusually intertwined with the notion of dignity. Because dignity is my resource-based value. Access to these resources is conditioned by legal or socio-cultural norms. And this dignity will always be expressed in contact and in relation to another person. Because they confirm or deny my right to dignity. If, during menstruation, one is deprived of access to the necessary hygiene products, if the right to intimacy is denied, if the body is not respected, or if the body is shamed, then yes, it is a violation of dignity. It is also deprivation of the feeling of safety and denying needs.
Many of us were raised by mothers and grandmothers who spoke with embarrassment about menstruation. It will be a long time before we speak out loud about our needs.
Let’s not leave it to future generations because we will experience inequality for a long time to come. This year, on International Women’s Day, I wrote to women close to, “I wish you to be strong when you want it and weak when you need it.” And between the lines – that you can finally speak out loud if you feel worse because you have the right to do so.
Do you imagine someone standing up at an important meeting and saying, “I want to postpone the presentation to another date because today I have my period”?
At this point, I cannot imagine it as a widespread practice. But if it happened at a meeting of my department, I would not find it embarrassing, I would not be shocked, and I would accept this argument with full understanding.
But you deal with social problems professionally.
I am capable of imagining that after some transformations in work environments, which, by the way, are progressing, such communication will be possible.
Even in a society so saturated with genderism, where guys don’t cry and women’s indisposition is taboo?
Yes, we are still caged and push difficult experiences into a dark corner. Menstruation is an intimate experience. It is up to the individual to decide how much they want to talk about it. However, I believe that we are heading in the right direction, even by speaking and writing about this issue in various aspects.
I remember how the representatives of the Y and Z generations were treated with a pinch of salt, those young people who loudly formulated their expectations towards employers because they wanted to earn well, but not to devote their entire lives to work. Nobody is surprised any more, and more and more companies are reacting to the value system of younger generations. We should also take a look at how feminative forms are adopted in society. I believe in changes because they are needed. It is a question of concern for dignity.
Does the way you deal with physiological issues at work affect the way an employee functions?
Definitely, especially since we put so much emphasis on competition. Failure to respect the right of a menstruating person to even temporarily feel worse may lead to a situation in which they will be locked in a lonely struggle to maintain their disposition. Such pushing yourself excessively can lead to frustration. When experiencing such burdens, one bears enormous consequences of maintaining one’s image as a reliable person, always ready for new tasks like an indestructible robot. This is associated with a deterioration in the quality of life.
What can you do to effectively and realistically help menstruating people?
The issue of period poverty, its symptoms and reasons, should be discussed as much as possible to show this phenomenon for a start. But not on a narrow spectrum. 4 percent of Poles have an income below the subsistence level, some of them menstruating, but – as I said – period poverty has a much wider scope. You have to show it in an egalitarian perspective. In the context of access to intimate comfort, self-acceptance at a time when performing certain activities is difficult.
We have a lot of diagnostic and change work to do in institutions. Access to hygiene products must be ensured. Workshops and campaigns on communication on menstrual issues are also needed.
Who would do this?
I imagine that employers could finance courses and training combined with the diagnosis of the problem and looking for ways to overcome barriers.
Period poverty should also be discussed in schools, taking into account not only the physical aspect, but also the context of a sense of security and dignity. Campaigns addressed to the school environment or the employers’ environment, which would encourage such activities, would be useful.
I would also focus on building solidarity between women. I have the impression that sometimes women themselves need the belief that they can give themselves the right to make their burdens visible. It should also be emphasised that the point is not to eliminate personal differences related to gender and social roles, but to respect and recognise them.
Arkadiusz Karwacki – sociologist, professor at Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń, head of the Department of Life Quality Research and Applied Sociology at the Institute of Sociology of Nicolaus Copernicus University. Researcher of social problems, quality of life and contemporary social policy. The author of such books as: „Błędne koło” [“Vicious Circle”], „Papierowe skrzydła. Rzecz o spójnej polityce aktywizacji” [“Paper Wings. The thing about a coherent policy of activation”], „Reintegracja. Aktywna polityka społeczna w praktyce” [“Reintegration. Active social policy in practice”], „Napięcia, starcia, rozładowania” [“Tensions, clashes, discharges”]. Member of the Sociology Committee of the Polish Academy of Sciences, vice-president of the Polish Society for Social Policy.
Interview by: Agnieszka Urazińska
Photo: Marcin Kruk
The text was published in „Wysokie Obcasy" on 3 April 2021
